- Reverse Trust Issues - Stress Related?

Do any of you have trust issues with your children? - stop laughing, this is legit. I'm finding that even all the good times and when Dd13 is doing her best, I'm becoming so very suspicious, wondering what's going on that is going to come out later with a boom. I've learned their trust issues through them and am not even sleeping well anymore. I'm praying a lot now to help me heal, forgive, accept the good that comes. I'm slowly gaining ground. But, I'm wondering, is this "learned" behaviour on my part or is it from the stress of living on egg shells? Would a few weeks to a month's break from them (not an option as Ds11 is doing well and that break would cause regression and Dd13 has trouble with a week away at camp) cause faster healing? I find it's really bad when things are really stressful and better when we get a day or two in a row of calm. How do you combat this because I love our darlins and am so tired of double checking things. I want to let them have some leeway and take on new things - with help at first. How do I move to this point? How do I let go?
anne

My vote is "learned behavior".....wise learned behavior, that is! Ma is so right...what's a "few days" of someone not stealing from you, or lieing to you, or in your case, screaming at you? Why would you trust in those brief times? But i get the struggle. My dd18 is so much milder in her raddiness than your dd and has been really been racking up some good/appropriate/kind/thoughtful moments with me over the past 6 months....yet, i realized as you did, that it isn't just SHE who struggles with trust issues now. I do too.

But I try not to beat myself up for it. I dont trust her because of HER behavior in the recent and not so recent past. My hope is that if her changes continue and are for real, my heart will catch up eventually and i will just find myself trusting her. But yes, it makes me feel sad at times that i dont. I will have a nice time with her and wish I could make myself look forward to seeing her again...but i dont. Because each encounter is a crap shoot. I never know what i will get so of course, i am gun shy and it will take time for me not to worry before seeing her. If i have a good visit, i have to take it for one nice visit and leave it at that. Too much pain to start hoping again that she may accept me as her loving mom.....It may come down the road....

In your case, you are talking about a day or two of "nice".. I think you just have to enjoy the nice and really seperate the love from trust. I dont trust my ds PERIOD. He steals and lies ALOT...i mean ALOT. I love him and cant imagine the day that i will trust him. It is what it is.

If you cant trust your kids and feel badly for "checking up on them" on good days, or not letting the reins loose on those days, just be stealthy about it (is stealthy a word? 8)) You are being WISE not to trust IMHO. On the other hand, it must be so incredibly stressful to wonder when the next rage is going to come. That has nothing to do with trust again, IMHO....it has to do with living in such a stressful environment. For that alone, i wish you had a wonderful therapist for YOU and DH....to cope with what is NOT a normal situation. You shouldnt have to do this without support and counsel..wise counsel, not crappola.

Mind ramblings again...hope something useful is in all this.

Learned behaviour. Stress compounded. Makes sense comparing it to a straying husband but in our case, we can't leave. We have to be the strong ones for these children. Perhaps because these are 'children' and society puts forth the idea of innocence, that RAD parents can second guess themselves. I guess for me, this is coming from a wanting things to be different for these kiddos and for us. Perhaps fatigue is such that the lines between nice/love and trust get blurred. It's so easy to forget, when you are tired, that just because they are almost as tall as you, doesn't mean that they are going to be 'at their age' and trust is proven. I like what was said that the "untrustworthy behaviour must stop". This is something that hasn't yet happened with Dd13. Ds11 is doing better in this recently.

Justine, what you said about your Dd, 'each encounter is a crap shoot', that's it exactly. I guess I'm feeling jaded. I used to go really freely into relationships, giving what I could and accepting what could be given and reserving judgment. After Dd13, it's carrying over to people in general. Now, I'm wary with everyone. Dh notices it. I'm not cynical and sarcastic, but I miss meeting people with that openness I used to have. It's having an experience in life that others don't have, they seem kind of naive and innocent and Dh and I don't see things that way anymore. In many social circumstances, it sets us apart. I wonder if this is how RADdish kiddos see the world... Is this what makes them feel separate and then perhaps they take it to the level of "special"?

We have done therapy for 'us' for more than a year. Dh is tired of talking about it and teaching the younger families in the group as we've got the oldest kiddos of all the families. For me it's the stress of going because last year Ds11 broke a window, went koo-koo for cocoa-puffs, etc. We can't get anyone to mind them on group night (which is a set Thursday night) because of things getting so crazy. Me? Meh. I could go or not. We used to use that night as a date night, and going alone just doesn't work as well. Dh and I talk a lot. I also talk to my Mom and sister which really helps. Most often when I need an answer to something, my question comes at a time when group is not. It's coming here that gets my mind straight. Just sometimes I wonder about these things and need to ask other "normal" RAD parents who've already been there.

Thanks for your ideas and listening ear.
anne

I like Kevin's illustration of the Brick Wall of Trust (you remember?).

Trust, once lost, takes a LONG time to rebuild and it might never be the same as it was in the beginning.

I did not trust my dd at all which caused me huge stress. Now that she does not live with us any more I don't trust her either, but it doesn't matter so much. I still don't trust her enough to want her back in my life as a permanent fixture. I don't want to share my life, my ups and downs, what happened etc with her because she will still use it to slander me (see my dinner with dd post).

So, sad as it is, no trust might be the way it is. Yiu can possibly protect yourself by not expecting too much - like when you ask them to do something just don't really expect them to do it and act as if you hadn't asked :angry2:.

Ahhh, I remember those days. It was walking on broken glass all the time.

Exactly...now what?

I guess it comes down to it in the end to two things for me at least:
1.) I'm not crazy/alone as this is not just me that's experiencing this.
2.) In this insane dance, Christ will have to be the music and the dancer when my RADdishes refuse. (I think I've forgotten that recently and needed the reminder - thanks)

I realize I'm very tired. I'm trying to heal from a herniated disk. I'm being screamed at every day because I see the lies and won't accept them. For me, I'm not going to heal while in this situation. I'll focus on the joys that do come e.g., sister's wedding, Ds11's progress so far, etc. If and when she is ready to heal, I'm here. We are their "wake-up call" before they hit the door of life. No one likes a wake-up call. Maybe that's why the hotels use automated systems? :happy8:

While you're in an 'abusive' situation, you do everything to learn to survive and not be like the abuser. It's just hard when children are this broken to let them go into God's hands because everyone around you expects you to do ... something. It hurts. Trust isn't growing where the lies abound. Healing doesn't happen for our kiddos unless they want it. Maybe I'm expecting too much of myself to trust again as this then makes it more important to me than to them?
anne

Justine, I think you have a point there about the kids wanting the things that come with trust.

Tonight I was talking with dh about when I could watch a movie I've rented. He responded that we'd have to choose a time when there was enough supervision and I responded that I thought the kids could watch this one with me so I would provide the supervision.

Ds15 became scornful and asked if we were talking about supervising him. I responded that yes we were. We don't leave him home alone yet and we believe that it is important that there be supervision. He got angry and mocked us for not being able to let him behave like a 15 year old. A lot more happened after that but I'll keep this the short version.

After a break we began to talk and I asked him to say more about his concerns. I empathized with him wishing he had more freedom.

I explained that while sometimes he does exactly as he has told us he would, there are other times when he does not do the agreed on plan. Also, when he gets into an unfamiliar situation he makes snap decisions before getting enough info, and he won't reconsider the decision when more info becomes available. For those reasons he needs to be around someone who can help him reconsider decisions before he gets into trouble.

Then I told him that I don't make these decisions because it is fun. Last Sunday he really went off into a crazy rage. I explained to him that it is going to be weeks before we will be able to see him frown and not feel fearful of another outburst like Sunday's. Right now no one trusts him to be able to handle a disagreement well.

So when I tell him 'no' to something he wants, I'm doing it because I have to. It isn't because it is easy or fun. I know that telling him no can make life awful for me and I still choose to do it anyway when I believe that it is the best thing for him. I'm willing to risk the rages and anger if I have to in order to parent him well.

I've done a lot of kicking myself for not trusting him quickly enough. I'm sure I will do more. But tonight I can see clearly that our gut instincts about trust are right, even if we don't fully understand them. Hopefully I'll be able to still see that tomorrow as well.

Me too. I like how you worded that Trying. We do that here too. Dh thinks I'm wasting my breath as does the AT, but our Ds11 'gets' those conversations. His other disabilities get in the way when he gets mad so he gets stuck in the rages (cerebral palsy and autism) but when he calms down, he really works at the relationship. Dd13 doesn't. She's more into winning the argument than wanting the relationship. My heart hurts for her.

Last night was awful - more screaming, lies, yelling, etc. But, I told her that she needed to really think on who we are to her, that she treated us like we were her former foster parents (no disrespect to foster parents!) and Dh said worse as she knew that she'd get moved on with that behaviour and if she like a place, she'd contain herself more - which was true. I asked her why she wanted to be here, call us Mom and Dad, etc. and her answer was that she'd never survive on her own. I said that was what foster care was and could provide and that families demand more than just 'being there'. She was stunned. She screamed that we wanted her to leave. I said no, we offer a family to her, not a place to grow up and survive. But there's a price to being in a family and that means giving back, not just taking. This morning she looked like she hadn't slept at all. She was miserable, angry, helpless, and defiant. We let her 'fend for herself' as she wasn't wanting to be part of things e.g., doing her own lunch, negotiating with a grumpy dog who decided she'd had enough and blocked her from going upstairs until she'd growled at Dd13 long enough for Dd13 to walk away (then the dog got up, wagged her tail, go figure!). Upon getting to school, she was sweet, opening doors for her Dad and making a big show out of her Dad bringing her to school - he was going to talk to her teacher...sigh.

Love is stronger than hate. We can love her despite the fact that we don't trust her - that she is unable to act in a mature and trustworthy way. I think I'm going to do my best to let this whole trust business go. If it happens, it happens. Right now, I've got to love her in spite of herself. I'm beginning to learn this now - deep down. "Love never fails." - at least on our part. Now, if we could just get some sleep...

anne

: justine April 07, 2009, 07:46:41 PM

Our kids probably dont CARE if we trust them or not. They just want the perks that come with being trusted. It isnt a relationship thing they are after..like trust. Just the benefits.

What if our kids think that we can't trust them, just like they can't trust anyone. Like they have no control over it & there is nothing they can do to change it.

That seems to be where we are at with DD14 right now. She thinks that we have some kind of character flaw because we won't let her do everything she wants. She goes to school & hears about all the things the other kids get to do & thinks that we are mean because we won't let her do things the other kids get to do.

She just doesn't get (no matter how many times she's heard it) that she could have more privileges & freedom if she earned some trust. When she asks how to earn trust, we tell her, "By being respectful, responsible & fun to be around & that includes being responsible for your education."

Then she starts telling us that she doesn't need another lecture & it's none of our business. Yesterday she cleaned out her book bag & threw everything in the recycling bin. When I pulled it out to see what she's been working on, she asked me in a voice dripping with snot why I was looking at her stuff. I told her that's what parents do. Things quickly got ugly & when I asked DD to go to her room - she started the "You never want to talk, blah, blah, blah..."

Pa came in to see what the commotion was about & DD told him it was none of his business & to go away. Luckily, Pa didn't catch that. His hearing is getting bad. (Probably a blessing!)

Anyway, DD doesn't want to be part of our family. She just wants to suck up whatever she can get until she can move on.

: anne April 08, 2009, 08:00:01 AM

her answer was that she'd never survive on her own.

Exactly!! DD to a T.

So sad when I think of how much progress she had been making & how far she's regressed. She's now lost all of the progress she made & then some. She's worse than before. So much brokenness. But, because she can't trust, maybe she thinks that no one can?

Ramblings of a very, very tired RAD mom.

:coffee: Ma,

I hear you. I think we have the same daughter. Can they be in the same place at the same time? Twins perhaps? Your Dd's arguments about having more privileges and freedoms is exactly what we're hearing. I know that some of this is typical for their age, just that our darlins' have the needle stuck in the same groove (sorry, an old record reference).

You're right. It's that infantile part of their brain that both girls are using - if I can't see it/do it/feel it, then no one else can either. I had a talk on the weekend about how babies learn with Dd13 (she's just finished studying the stages of development of human babies in school). I told her that at first babies 'think' that we are attached to them, they are in control of us and are part of them, if we can't be seen, we've disappeared! Dd13 was incredulous. I said that it took time for them to learn that Mom/Dad wouldn't always do what they wanted and thus they were separate creatures, with ideas of their own. Inherently they know parents mean survival, and they then learn that if we are separate, pleasing us feels good and displeasing us feels bad, etc. all the way to adulthood. I asked her, where she saw herself in this progression of development. She said, the newborn that thinks she can control her parents. :o :o :o Either our Dd13 is one smart cookie or she knows how to manipulate us with the right answers...either way I was subtly impressed. We talked further on that. I've been using that analogy with her senseless arguments. She 'gets it' but she doesn't want to and fights all the harder. sigh. Don't even think she really gets what trust is, though she gets excited about ways to prove herself so we'll trust her, then won't do them.

Lots of work, lots of stress, lots of exhaustion.... lots of hugs to you and Pa.

anne

Ma Kettle said:
What if our kids think that we can't trust them, just like they can't trust anyone. Like they have no control over it & there is nothing they can do to change it.

I like this as a very clean view, and would only qualify it as a part of the reason attachment is so difficult to develop if you missed the basics in infancy.

My kids will sometimes try to do what we have told them is expected and would lead toward our ability to trust them.

Example:
We ask them to tell us where they are and who they are with.

They can do this honestly for a dozen times or even a hundred then that one time comes along when they go one place where we approve and immediately turn and head for the "party" at a friend's house (drugs, alcohol and other stuff).

So the result is:

We feel betrayed because we were just starting to relax and believe they had figured it out.
They feel Hay, I got it right 18 times! Why can't you trust me?

If trust were book-making, my kids would be at 51% to 90%, and we'd bet with them every day. That last 10% of consistency of doing what's expected and being aware of the value of trust just seems to be missing.

You can almost hear them flush away all that trust they were starting to earn, and then the "I don't care" after they get caught. It's always our fault that we don't trust them.

Sorry, things got busy and I haven't been on for a bit. You asked if my ds15 can benefit from conversations like the one I described. The answer is: sometimes. In the last week there have not been many moments when he could benefit, but on the day I described in my last post, he seemed to get it.

I've been thinking a lot about how to keep equilibrium lately. (Is there any of us who hasn't?) One thing that keeps coming to mind is how much we doubt ourselves---how much I doubt myself. When my ds15 yells about not being trusted I have to go back and figure out whether I 'should' be trusting him, and whether I'm parenting him well. Then I get defensive and feel I have to explain to him and get his approval for why I don't trust him, or don't let him get by with no chores, or don't....(fill in the blank) I end up explaining and trying to convince him I'm right---and I end up doing it when he is already too emotional to listen well.

What is up with that?

We make sense. Somehow we need to be able to relax with that. Our kids have reactive attachment disorder so they will often be so stressed out emotionally that they can't be rational. When they start demanding trust from us, I want to get to the place where I can believe I'm still a good mom. My ds is accusing me of being a bad mom because he is struggling---NOT because I AM a bad mom. I want to be able to get to the place where I can have my first response be empathetic instead of defensive. I have a ways to go with that.

But I believe that if I could trust myself more, I would find it easier to let the crazy accusations he makes be one of the sad things he does because he doesn't understand love and trust. I think I'd be able to say to myself, he's having a hard time with it today, instead of thinking I have to prove that I'm right about this.

Trying, all I can say is that i agree. It really is a good goal...to be able to trust ourselves enough to not question ourselves everytime our rads go off on us. Or even some of the time. I do the same thing. Dd18 feels loved or unloved, depending on things that go on in her head. Her feelings dont always line up with reality. I can be distant and busy and she feels fine or not. I can be close and attentive and she feels fine or not.... But if she is dropping her p/a hints that she is "unloved", i start panicking or feeling guilty or resentful or....ACCCKKK!

Part of the "explaining ourselves" is our desire to be a good mom in our RAD's eyes. I know when my dd24 wrote an awful letter to me in Oct. (after a 6+ yr silence) I knew that most of what she said was her illness speaking. I know that, but as i told some here....if the whole world agreed with me, i would still be sad that my dd thinks i am a bad mom who "hates her and wanted her life to be ruined". (her words) I dont know if that desire to have our mom-heart accepted by our kids goes away....maybe it grows quieter over time.

I think i will always wish my children were well and felt loved. How can we not wish for that? But meanwhile we have to learn to accept what is....and hope.

"Part of the "explaining ourselves" is our desire to be a good mom in our RAD's eyes." Exactly. Well said.

I think this is my biggest hurdle that I thought I'd overcome. I guess it's a learning curve and regression under stress needs to be acknowledged, accepted, and taken into consideration so that I can deal with things better. No child really thanks their parents and even begins to understand what their parents have done for them until they are adults/parents themselves. This is part of growing up for everyone. At least parents with children who haven't had trauma get feedback in positive ways at times or can remember their darlins when they were infants. They have positive times to draw back on knowing that, "this too shall pass". RADdishes are different. No one knows if it will pass, be toned down, fade, or just stay the same. We have no feedback mechanism to say if we are doing this correctly or not. No one knows how badly the trauma has impacted their brains nor how permanently they will be affected. As Don said, it's that trusting and then they blow it and it's so hard to not go back to the idea that this really is an 'oops' or is it, as it is so often, the start of a very slippery slope.

We've had Easter. We've had 4 glorious days together (Fri-Mon). It all came undone yesterday with incomplete homework that Dd13 said was done when asked throughout the weekend. We dealt with it - quietly. This morning we found out about her destroying her brother's deodorant, twisting freezies and leaving them half open in the freezer, among other things. She got rude and blew. We got loud. She pushes and pushes until there is an explosion. If you don't explode the first time, she keeps going and making things worse until you do get upset.

What have I learned? The four days gave me time to become 'me' again. They brought me back to the person I have been all along and keep loosing along the way due to stress. I am 'shy' of people now. I do see the manipulative people much faster now and don't put up with it. That's okay. I do trust those who are trustworthy - and that's what really counts! When she backs down and is pleasant to be around or if we have a complete break from her, we can return to a more normal life. My stress/trust issues are not as awful as I thought, but can get that way because of her tantrums. They also taught me that I know our Dd13 pretty well. I love the beautiful girl I got to go bridal shopping with on Monday (we're both in my sister's wedding party). I love her sense of humour, her whit, her keen love for life, her energy and enthusiasm, her creativity, her very soul. She is precious. The stress and trauma of these constant tantrums are wearing us, the parents down. But in spite of all of this, I knew that the goodweekend we had with her wouldn't last and that was okay. We got through until Tues. evening before she melted - not too bad. I don't feel badly about not being able to trust her in the area of her homework/responsibilities. This is the way she is - at least for now. I can't change her. She has to want to change. Somewhere along the way I stopped letting her go and started again to try to do it for her again - at least emotionally.

So, for me...
1. Stress takes the "manageable" and can wear me down so that even little things seem monumental - I need to be aware of that and work to reduce stress where possible (breaks and nice things for me are a good start). Trust issues like any other issues are made worse because of stress.
2. She'll change or not as she is capable and desires to.
3. I am responsible for keeping me going so that I can be the best Mom and Wife I can be.
4. Trust is an earned thing when all the unwanted behaviour has completely stopped. That's okay.
5. I still love her and can see the good in her.

Perhaps #5 was the part that I was needing to see the most. This past weekend was a blessing because it reminded me that when she does want to, she can open up and show the beautiful soul she has. If I can keep this memory first in my mind even under stress, I can manage me and be there for her. God, give us all the strength to do this.

anne

Anne, your post blesses me. Really. I'm writing with a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes - you've articulated some things that I haven't had words for.

My DS8 a couple of weeks ago had a meltdown where he began hitting me. (This has been a problem since he was a baby. I know things have improved because he now pulls his punches and I'm not actually hurt. But it's still horrible.) I lost it, began to sob, and told him that "kids are supposed to love their parents. Kids aren't supposed to hit their mothers. I don't know how to help you learn this. I've been trying for years and years..." He began crying, too, and said, "But I do!" to counter what I said about kids loving their parents.

I think he does love me. It's just all so mixed up and covered over..... and I get worn out trying to always dig for the "gold". But I think it's there. I hope it's there. I pray it's there.

Thanks again, Anne. (((((((((((Anne)))))))))

Hi Anne;
I see your point that when we are in the middle of crisis with crazy stuff all around us our ability to trust really is at an extreme low. When the crisis is over and we begin to relax we find we are again seeing some ability to trust. That has been repeated many times in my family, so I do understand.

I will defend that low trust level by saying that at least for my kids, when they are escallated into high emotion fight/flight mode, they are capable of doing things that they would not under less extreme conditions. They really cannot be trusted in that state to the same level that they can when calm and functioning with more of their upper brains.

You are right to suggest that one of the elements of sanity in this area is to remember that our emotions do effect the way we think at a given moment of time. Our kids show that directly by the abusive junk that comes out of their mouths when they are in this state, including direct accusation that we never wanted them, never loved them and would rather they just died so we could stop worrying.

One of the best defenses that we've learned is to refuse to go beyond a specific level of discussion. We get screaming stuff about you're going to send me away, you won't ever let me see my friend again, etc. It is important not to say "You are right" at that moment because we are angry. At least for dw and I it is unlikely we will do either of these things next day or the day after that when things have calmed down.

When we can catch ourselves, we try for the Love & Logic disconnect --
This is not acceptable, there will be a consequence but I need time to think about it. Why don't you think about it too and I'll ask you after everyone calms down.

Then it is sometimes hard to not continue the "fight", and not respond to crazy junk being thrown at us. By having said "I will get back to you on that" once, we can continue to say it until they run out of steam and usually fall asleep. The huge emotional drains of these events can leave everyone exhausted. Both the child and parent need time to calm, reconstruct a more stable mood, and think about next steps.

Don,
You have described our home to a 't'! It's the not being drawn into those fights that gets us. Repeating for us only ends up in our darlins escalating their behaviour - which can go to the point of breaking things or them biting themselves, or being violent towards us. So, we send them to their rooms - not a good moment for time in which comes later. We have drawn a line for violence and slowly, very slowly, they are coming to terms with it. Boundaries were non-existent when they came and are only faint after almost 8 years.

Maybe it's being naive, yes even after all these years...I'm finding myself in clear moments - that don't last long - of being detached emotionally from the issues and telling myself, Yes, that's because they are acting in an unloving and untrustworthy way, right now. Not sure if it's from exhaustion or what. The fact that they are not trustworthy right now isn't as big an issue when I have these clear moments. But, when it gets repeated day after day and the hysterics accompany it... :angry9: yup, we go then too. :-[ We are trying so hard to stay at the station. When both get going or trigger the other, it just seems to be one long miserable day after another. Right now, I'm in that good zone. Dd13 began again this morning making sure I'd have to correct her - not things I can let go, as I let go quite a few as well - so that she could play victim and begin her act again. Ds11 then had an issue over his pills. I handled it, pretty good, but needs improvement. But, if it pops up again tonight, tomorrow morning/evening, etc. I don't know how long I can do this. Then the frustration becomes overwhelming, the exhaustion takes over, and I'm back to being hyper-vigelent (sp?) all over again. I'm still jumping when Ds11 comes into a room to quietly. I'm taking herbal nerve tonic daily. I'm reading my Bible daily. I'm praying by the minute.

So, I'll chalk this morning up to a pretty good one on my part and treasure it. I just don't know how you and Wifey do it, Don. You both are really incredible people and I thank God that you are so willing to share your heartache and your successes. You are both amazing parents and those kiddos are really really blessed to have you - though they might never admit it. Your growth as parents helps us as well. Thank you.
anne

Okay, I'm going to jump into this thread with a question. Like Don and Anne described, my DS8 can move into "dysfunction" mode pretty quickly, and while there do some pretty nasty stuff: major verbal abuse, hitting, kicking, spitting, destroying things, etc. It doesn't happen often, but it happens enough that I'm always "on edge" if he seems a little negative. And that's most of the time.

Yesterday DS8 was upset about not being able to play with the neighbor kids (they weren't home) and came in and worked himself into a rage right away. He was self-controlled enough this time not to do anything physical, but he wouldn't let up on me verbally and he absolutely refused to take his rage and his words into his room.

The choices I have seem limited: 1) get DH (if he's home) to intervene, and that's what I did yesterday
2) remove myself from the situation (done that before, but he follows me and begins kicking at the doors, screaming, etc.)
3) physically move him to his room (he escalates and becomes violent with me)
4) move to Antarctica

Do you have other real options that have worked for you in these situations? At the moment I'm feeling like I have no control over my home - if DS rages, he takes over and there's no "safe place" for either of us. It's a hard place to be. Help!

Jeannie,
I have no idea whether this will work but this is my suggestion.

Talk with him when he is calm about a strategy for when he is not calm. Tell him that when he starts getting upset, the things he says and the way he says them gets too stressful for you and you have to find some other way of handling them. Ask him for a trial time where when you feel too stressed, you will ask for a break. You agree on the places your son can go for this break, but none of the options include staying with you or following you around. Assure him that you can and will still talk through the issue later when you no longer feel stressed. Maybe with this assurance he will be able to take the break.

If he can't, you are close to needing outside intervention. Eight is pretty young, especially with our kids, for being able to control emotions so I have no idea whether he can do this. The other thing I would do sometimes is call a friend. If I was on the phone, the kids sometimes seemed to be able to refocus.

Ours were older when they got to the point of following us and becoming physical when we tried to remove ourselves from the conflict. But that was pretty close to the times when they ended up in rtc.

Jeannie,

Our AT had Ds11 find a safe spot in his room - beanbag chair - where he could practice being a turtle, pulling in his angry head, hands, feet, etc. and pulling it all inside his shell. We taught him how to take deep breathes,usually when we held his hands and breathed with him. Two years later he is finally starting to implement them on good days. We also removed the dangerous things from his room e.g., bed frame (he broke it), curtains (broke the rod), desk (sits in hall and moved into room when he's calm), toys and books to playroom in basement except for stuffed toys, etc. We created a safe room for him to go to. We sit outside his room in the hall or go into our bedroom across the hall so we are nearby. It works as long as you can train them to actually go to the room to calm down - we use 1 min. per year with a visual timer.

No answers for being on the edge - I'm doing herbal nerve tonic, exercising, and praying, praying, praying. Some days are better than others. Lately I'm doing much better and not sure why which can be frustrating as I don't know how to repeat it/hold onto it.

((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))
anne

: Jeannie April 22, 2009, 09:32:26 AM

... Yesterday DS8 was upset about not being able to play with the neighbor kids (they weren't home) and came in and worked himself into a rage right away. He was self-controlled enough this time not to do anything physical, but he wouldn't let up on me verbally and he absolutely refused to take his rage and his words into his room.

Hi Jeannie;
Your four choices are pretty much what's available, but there is one thing that is critical and I want to point it out carefully. If he refuses to back off and take this to a safe place, this is beyond tolerable and you need a method of responding in addition to what you can use when he is at least a little cooperative.

Please read and discuss the following with dh and your therapists and local police.

I would suggest (5) -- Take myself (and other kids) to my bedroom which has a hard lock and a phone. Call either dh or the police to come immediately.

The danger is real and you cannot continue much longer with that level of threat in your home. Take all the opportunities you can to try putting in safe exits like Trying and Anne describe, but make a clear line about what is too dangerous to be allowed.

Some parents can take active restraint training and manage more danger than others, but the bottom line is if you or other family members feel threatened then the home is no longer a safe place. A safe home comes first, and has to take priority over any power struggles or tantrums that may occur within that safe place.

To be honest, you guys are scaring me.

Police, intervention, RTC.... I believe you're probably right, but it frightens me.

We meet our AT for the first time next week. It's been a long, hard, search, but I believe we've found someone who fits the bill. She is NOT talking about play therapy, NOT laughing at me being freaked out by the crazy behavior (I just can't take any more suggestions regarding sticker charts!!!), and seems to "get it". Her passion is working with families affected by attachment difficulties, and she's been working on getting into the insurance network that we have.

I am very grateful to have found this therapist. So.... I'll take your suggestions, pray through them, work on a contingency plan for meltdowns with DS8, DH, and the AT. Must go... DS is waiting to go for a walk with me. It's been a good day.

Thanks so much, everyone.

: Jeannie April 23, 2009, 06:32:18 PM

To be honest, you guys are scaring me.

Hi Jeannie;
I am sorry if it comes across as scary, but so many things we see in RADland get to extremes that most people can not imagine. It might have helped to give you a piece of why my dw and I find it necessary to think in terms of "what's the worst that can happen?"

In our family, we have found two basic tendencies.

1- Things escallate at breath taking speed, calm one minute and screaming out of control the next. The drop from peak back to being calm again can be almost as abrupt, but the loops and turns along the way can push the limits of reality.

2- We need a safety plan for that "worst that can happen" situation, like threat of immediate violence against parent or other kids, so we have put two boundaries in place.

We can say to our kids "cross this line and we will have to stop you"
If that line is crossed we know we can stop the insanity.

The safety plan gives us strength through knowing what to do in a crisis, knowing that either parent will do what is needed, and being sure the other will back up the decision.

Please believe that when I talk about:
Police, intervention, RTC.... I believe you're probably right, but it frightens me.

There are many steps to take short of that and we will do everything we can think of and ask for all the help we can get to avoid going there. I hope you can talk this out with your new therapist and come to your own plan of how to keep things under control, and provide a safe backstop if the pressure cooker is about to explode.

Don,

Yes. You are so right, and I have needed to hear those words.

Part of the stress-load I carry now is the lack of a plan for those "pressure cooker" times. And like you described, they happen fast and seem to come from out of nowhere.

We moved 10 months ago to another state, and the security I had before in terms of support from therapist, school, family, church, friend with RADlet - most of that is gone. I've been working pretty hard to find new sources of support, but it's hard going.

The friend I mentioned above suggested this online forum as one specific way I could link up with others. It's been a blessing in many ways.

One of those blessings is having you and others here share your stories. It somehow helps me keep perspective on our own version of RADland. There are times when I look at what goes on in our home and wonder what I'm so anxious about. Then another shoe drops and all heck breaks loose and I wonder why I haven't done more to have a contingency plan. Your advice to talk through the worst case scenarios with DH and AT (and possibly the police) is a good one, and I appreciate the strong reminder to make it a priority.

Thanks again. And to Trying and Anne for your good ideas, too. I've talked with DS8 yesterday about his ideas for a good place to go when he's raging, and he had some serious thoughts about it. He seemed to understand my need for safety from his rage. That's a step in the right direction.

Okay. I've hijacked this thread long enough. Be blessed, all!

You all are the best.

What a great thread to come back to. Trust. Wow!

What I have been learning as of late is that I have to learn how to trust myself again before I can trust my radishes. Things spiralled so far out of control and so far down, that my home became unsafe. Behaviors that should have shocked the socks off of us, became 'normal'. I got in so deep that I found myself 'trying one more time', 'it's not that bad', the list goes on, until my son was removed from my home in handcuffs. When the smoke cleared, I realized that I was no longer able to even see what was going on and could not trust myself. I had to be brutally honest and self reflective and be very purposeful in setting healthy boundaries for my family.

Bijou and 13harley have been godsends.

I have worked very hard at learning how to defend these new boundaries, not tolerating out of control behaviors, and learning to trust myself again that I can parent my kiddos.

Now I am working on trusting my radishes and being more in tune to sweet pea and dd18. Sweet pea and dd18 all ready have my trust.

The radishes....when they are trust worthy, I will trust them. Until then....not so much!

blessings

Yes, Jeannie, it is scary, but the plan in place makes it less so. Glad you're getting things in place to help Ds8.

((((((((((((((((Blessings))))))))))))))))))))

We're almost back to that yuck point and my stress is on over-drive. I've had to cut back to coffee at breakfast only (mild - yuck) and still we're walking on eggshells.

I know that Dd13 is rather, um, miserable right now. I know that despite all we do, Ds11 may still run away again if the fancy takes him (he talked about it yesterday as we drove to the mall to buy his suit for my sister's wedding so I took it as an opportunity to go over where he runs TO = home; I'm still shook up over that). Part of me has resigned myself to that fact. Part of me hasn't. I think it's that part of me that wants to believe things aren't so bad -which is why I need Dh's :o to remind me. Not trusting Dd13 on anything - we have no clean clothes thanks to her, don't ask, a looong story. She stirred the pot all day yesterday after really enjoying herself on a day trip with the family yesterday. Today I'm jumping with the least little thing with Ds11 and trying to appear 'calm and in control'. But I don't trust him not to run today - not at all.

Stress exacerbates trust issues. There's such a fine line between overseeing things and paranoia. But after you've had the levels of crazy we've had, like Blessings said, it almost seems normal. My Dh, Mom, and Sister were more freaked out than I was about Ds11's running a week and a bit ago. Don't get me wrong, I cried and was really shaken at the time. But not as badly as the first two times when he ran from my Mom's. Maybe my edginess today is some of the fall out - am I processing it now?

I wish we could all get together and take a RADlet free holiday to somewhere nice - where they don't scream at you, no one goes from 1 to 1000 to 1, and where we could all just breathe. That's my thought for today!!! All of us on a nice island with lots of supportive people, warm ocean breezes, and peace. :sunny:
anne

Trauma Headquarters and ADSG

Trauma, Attachment Disorder, & Difficult to Raise Children => Anxiety and Stress => : anne April 06, 2009, 06:58:51 AM