Reverse Trust Issues - Stress Related?

[anne]

Do any of you have trust issues with your children? - stop laughing, this is legit.  I'm finding that even all the good times and when Dd13 is doing her best, I'm becoming so very suspicious, wondering what's going on that is going to come out later with a boom.  I've learned their trust issues through them and am not even sleeping well anymore.  I'm praying a lot now to help me heal, forgive, accept the good that comes.  I'm slowly gaining ground.  But, I'm wondering, is this "learned" behaviour on my part or is it from the stress of living on egg shells?  Would a few weeks to a month's  break from them (not an option as Ds11 is doing well and that break would cause regression and Dd13 has trouble with a week away at camp) cause faster healing?  I find it's really bad when things are really stressful and better when we get a day or two in a row of calm.  How do you combat this because I love our darlins and am so tired of double checking things.  I want to let them have some leeway and take on new things - with help at first.   How do I move to this point?  How do I let go?
anne

[Sparrow]

i know how you feel. although my DD is just 4, and healing now, i still cant get over when she was being an absolute demon. she tries her best now, and is generally a good kid, but i do still tend to let my suspicians get ahead of me. im constantly cheking on her to make sure she is doing exactly what i told her to do, and so on. and i fully realize that its my problem, not hers, because she rarely does mess up anymore. and she is very loving. i guess i just have to learn to trust my accomplishments...

[MaKettle]

Trust, once broken, takes a long time to rebuild.  An apology & time are not enough.  The untrustworthy behavior must stop.

Imagine an unfaithful husband.  If he apologized & stayed close to home for a week - would you trust him not to ever stray again?  Or would you be checking his cell phone, credit card statement, day planner, etc?  I know what I would do.

I would love to be able to trust my DD, but history shows me that she is not trustworthy.  And the few times when she's really tried to "act normal" to earn some freedom - I've found some evil, ugly writing about me in her journal.  I try to enjoy the "normal" times but I also try not to get sucked into the raddercoaster.

(((((((((anne)))))))))

[justine]

My vote is "learned behavior".....wise learned behavior, that is!   Ma is so right...what's a "few days" of someone not stealing from you, or lieing to you, or in your case, screaming at you?   Why would you trust in those brief times?   But i get the struggle.   My dd18 is so much milder in her raddiness than your dd and has been really been racking up some good/appropriate/kind/thoughtful moments with me over the past 6 months....yet, i realized as you did, that it isn't just SHE who struggles with trust issues now.  I do too.

But I try not to beat myself up for it.  I dont trust her because of HER behavior in the recent and not so recent past.   My hope is that if her changes continue and are for real, my heart will catch up eventually and i will just find myself trusting her.   But yes, it makes me feel sad at times that i dont.   I will have a nice time with her and wish I could make myself look forward to seeing her again...but i dont.  Because each encounter is a crap shoot.   I never know what i will get so of course, i am gun shy and it will take time for me not to worry before seeing her.  If i have a good visit, i have to take it for one nice visit and leave it at that.  Too much pain to start hoping again that she may accept me as her loving mom.....It may come down the road....

In your case, you are talking about a day or two of "nice"..   I think you just have to enjoy the nice and really seperate the love from trust.   I dont trust my ds PERIOD.   He steals and lies ALOT...i mean ALOT.   I love him and cant imagine the day that i will trust him.   It is what it is.   

If you cant trust your kids and feel badly for "checking up on them" on good days, or not letting the reins loose on those days, just be stealthy about it (is stealthy a word?  )   You are being WISE not to trust IMHO.   On the other hand, it must be so incredibly stressful to wonder when the next rage is going to come.   That has nothing to do with trust again, IMHO....it has to do with living in such a stressful environment.   For that alone, i wish you had a wonderful therapist for YOU and DH....to cope with what is NOT a normal situation.   You shouldnt have to do this without support and counsel..wise counsel, not crappola.

Mind ramblings again...hope something useful is in all this.

[anne]

Learned behaviour. Stress compounded.  Makes sense comparing it to a straying husband but in our case, we can't leave.  We have to be the strong ones for these children.  Perhaps because these are 'children' and society puts forth the idea of innocence, that RAD parents can second guess themselves.  I guess for me, this is coming from a wanting things to be different for these kiddos and for us.  Perhaps fatigue is such that the lines between nice/love and trust get blurred.  It's so easy to forget, when you are tired, that just because they are almost as tall as you, doesn't mean that they are going to be 'at their age' and trust is proven.  I like what was said that the "untrustworthy behaviour must stop".  This is something that hasn't yet happened with Dd13.  Ds11 is doing better in this recently. 

Justine, what you said about your Dd, 'each encounter is a crap shoot', that's it exactly.  I guess I'm feeling jaded.  I used to go really freely into relationships, giving what I could and accepting what could be given and reserving judgment. After Dd13, it's carrying over to people in general. Now, I'm wary with everyone.  Dh notices it.  I'm not cynical and sarcastic, but I miss meeting people with that openness I used to have.  It's having an experience in life that others don't have, they seem kind of naive and innocent and Dh and I don't see things that way anymore.  In many social circumstances, it sets us apart.  I wonder if this is how RADdish kiddos see the world... Is this what makes them feel separate and then perhaps they take it to the level of "special"?

We have done therapy for 'us' for more than a year.  Dh is tired of talking about it and teaching the younger families in the group as we've got the oldest kiddos of all the families.  For me it's the stress of going because last year Ds11 broke a window, went koo-koo for cocoa-puffs, etc.  We can't get anyone to mind them on group night (which is a set Thursday night) because of things getting so crazy.  Me?  Meh.  I could go or not.  We used to use that night as a date night, and going alone just doesn't work as well.   Dh and I talk a lot.   I also talk to my Mom and sister which really helps.  Most often when I need an answer to something, my question comes at a time when group is not.  It's coming here that gets my mind straight.  Just sometimes I wonder about these things and need to ask other "normal" RAD parents who've already been there. 

Thanks for your ideas and listening ear.
anne

[rapunzel44]

I like Kevin's illustration of the Brick Wall of Trust (you remember?).

Trust, once lost, takes a LONG time to rebuild and it might never be the same as it was in the beginning.

I did not trust my dd at all which caused me huge stress. Now that she does not live with us any more I don't trust her either, but it doesn't matter so much. I still don't trust her enough to want her back in my life as a permanent fixture. I don't want to share my life, my ups and downs, what happened etc with her because she will still use it to slander me (see my dinner with dd post).

So, sad as it is, no trust might be the way it is. Yiu can possibly protect yourself by not expecting too much - like when you ask them to do something just don't really expect them to do it and act as if you hadn't asked .

Ahhh, I remember those days. It was walking on broken glass all the time.

[justine]

Anne...I'll bet if you did a poll here you would find that you are not alone in your general wariness with other people outside the family.   We have lost our own "innocence" in Radland.   For one thing, if people are manipulative, even mildly so, i can sniff it out like a rotting onion.  And i recoil instantly.  Actually i lost my normal level of trust 5 years before we adopted...thanks to one crazy narcissitic personality disordered controlling pastor.  I think he's the reason that i caught on to my oldest adopted dd's p/a games so quickly.   

[karleen]

We once had a wise president that said something like "Trust, but verify".  Think that was the quote.

You aren't the only one, Anne.  I SOOOO don't trust the twins.  And they really are making gains.

I can't really add much to what others have already said.  But some of your questions made me think of a thread that Don M started quite a while back.  It is a discussion about trust, how it gets damaged, and how it heals.  I searched it out, and thought you might want to reread it.

Now, let's see if I can get the link to post.

http://www.adsg.org/forum/index.php/topic,450.0.html

[Don M]

karleen brought back a thread link, but I also want to respond a little to the rebuilding issues.

There is a huge insight from Ma Kettle:
The untrustworthy behavior must stop.

We try hard to look for hope, and we so much want to see our kids "finally wake up" and understand this fundamental element of human relationships.  We even try to change our expectations and try to excuse our kids for past problems.

Still after having your trust broken time after time, it takes only a tiny lie to open up all that old hurt and destroy the progress that may have taken place over months a tiny step at a time.

[anne]

Exactly...now what?

I guess it comes down to it in the end to two things for me at least:
1.)  I'm not crazy/alone as this is not just me that's experiencing this.
2.)  In this insane dance, Christ will have to be the music and the dancer when my RADdishes refuse. (I think I've forgotten that recently and needed the reminder - thanks)

I realize I'm very tired.  I'm trying to heal from a herniated disk.  I'm being screamed at every day because I see the lies and won't accept them. For me, I'm not going to heal while in this situation.  I'll focus on the joys that do come e.g., sister's wedding, Ds11's progress so far, etc.   If and when she is ready to heal, I'm here.  We are their "wake-up call" before they hit the door of life.  No one likes a wake-up call.  Maybe that's why the hotels use automated systems?   

While you're in an 'abusive' situation, you do everything to learn to survive and not be like the abuser.  It's just hard when children are this broken to let them go into God's hands because everyone around you expects you to do ... something.  It hurts.  Trust isn't growing where the lies abound.  Healing doesn't happen for our kiddos unless they want it.  Maybe I'm expecting too much of myself to trust again as this then makes it more important to me than to them?
anne

[justine]

Anne i think you may have hit on an important point again.   Our kids probably dont CARE if we trust them or not.  They just want the perks that come with being trusted.   It isnt a relationship thing they are after..like trust.  Just the benefits.  You are the one who cares.  Take care!

[trying]

Justine, I think you have a point there about the kids wanting the things that come with trust.

Tonight I was talking with dh about when I could watch a movie I've rented.  He responded that we'd have to choose a time when there was enough supervision and I responded that I thought the kids could watch this one with me so I would provide the supervision.

Ds15 became scornful and asked if we were talking about supervising him.  I responded that yes we were.  We don't leave him home alone yet and we believe that it is important that there be supervision.  He got angry and mocked us for not being able to let him behave like a 15 year old.  A lot more happened after that but I'll keep this the short version.

After a break we began to talk and I asked him to say more about his concerns.  I empathized with him wishing he had more freedom. 

I explained that while sometimes he does exactly as he has told us he would, there are other times when he does not do the agreed on plan.  Also, when he gets into an unfamiliar situation he makes snap decisions before getting enough info, and he won't reconsider the decision when more info becomes available.  For those reasons he needs to be around someone who can help him reconsider decisions before he gets into trouble.

Then I told him that I don't make these decisions because it is fun.  Last Sunday he really went off into a crazy rage.  I explained to him that it is going to be weeks before we will be able to see him frown and not feel fearful of another outburst like Sunday's.  Right now no one trusts him to be able to handle a disagreement well.

So when I tell him 'no' to something he wants, I'm doing it because I have to.  It isn't because it is easy or fun.  I know that telling him no can make life awful for me and I still choose to do it anyway when I believe that it is the best thing for him.  I'm willing to risk the rages and anger if I have to in order to parent him well.

I've done a lot of kicking myself for not trusting him quickly enough.  I'm sure I will do more.  But tonight I can see clearly that our gut instincts about trust are right, even if we don't fully understand them.  Hopefully I'll be able to still see that tomorrow as well.

[justine]

Thanks for sharing, Trying.  Lots of thoughtful stuff to think about.  Hmm...maybe your ds could spend a few minutes thinking about it as well....     Hope you get some "trying" out of him as well.   Does he seem to have some logic and insight to be able to gain something from such conversations?   I ask because our ds didnt...and i like reading about your conversations with your son...

[anne]

Me too.  I like how you worded that Trying.  We do that here too.  Dh thinks I'm wasting my breath as does the AT, but our Ds11 'gets' those conversations.  His other disabilities get in the way when he gets mad so he gets stuck in the rages (cerebral palsy and autism) but when he calms down, he really works at the relationship.  Dd13 doesn't.  She's more into winning the argument than wanting the relationship.   My heart hurts for her.

Last night was awful - more screaming, lies, yelling, etc.  But, I told her that she needed to really think on who we are to her, that she treated us like we were her former foster parents (no disrespect to foster parents!) and Dh said worse as she knew that she'd get moved on with that behaviour and if she like a place, she'd contain herself more - which was true.  I asked her why she wanted to be here, call us Mom and Dad, etc. and her answer was that she'd never survive on her own.  I said that was what foster care was and could provide and that families demand more than just 'being there'.  She was stunned.  She screamed that we wanted her to leave.  I said no, we offer a family to her, not a place to grow up and survive.  But there's a price to being in a family and that means giving back, not just taking.  This morning she looked like she hadn't slept at all.  She was miserable, angry, helpless, and defiant. We let her 'fend for herself' as she wasn't wanting to be part of things e.g., doing her own lunch, negotiating with a grumpy dog who decided she'd had enough and blocked her from going upstairs until she'd growled at Dd13 long enough for Dd13 to walk away (then the dog got up, wagged her tail, go figure!).   Upon getting to school, she was sweet, opening doors for her Dad and making a big show out of her Dad bringing her to school - he was going to talk to her teacher...sigh.

Love is stronger than hate.  We can love her despite the fact that we don't trust her - that she is unable to act in a mature and trustworthy way.  I think I'm going to do my best to let this whole trust business go.  If it happens, it happens.  Right now, I've got to love her in spite of herself.   I'm beginning to learn this now - deep down.  "Love never fails." - at least on our part.  Now, if we could just get some sleep...

anne

[MaKettle]

Our kids probably dont CARE if we trust them or not.  They just want the perks that come with being trusted.   It isnt a relationship thing they are after..like trust.  Just the benefits.

What if our kids think that we can't trust them, just like they can't trust anyone.  Like they have no control over it & there is nothing they can do to change it.

That seems to be where we are at with DD14 right now.  She thinks that we have some kind of character flaw because we won't let her do everything she wants.  She goes to school & hears about all the things the other kids get to do & thinks that we are mean because we won't let her do things the other kids get to do.

She just doesn't get (no matter how many times she's heard it) that she could have more privileges & freedom if she earned some trust.  When she asks how to earn trust, we tell her, "By being respectful, responsible & fun to be around & that includes being responsible for your education."

Then she starts telling us that she doesn't need another lecture & it's none of our business.  Yesterday she cleaned out her book bag & threw everything in the recycling bin.  When I pulled it out to see what she's been working on, she asked me in a voice dripping with snot why I was looking at her stuff.  I told her that's what parents do.  Things quickly got ugly & when I asked DD to go to her room - she started the "You never want to talk, blah, blah, blah..."

Pa came in to see what the commotion was about & DD told him it was none of his business & to go away.  Luckily, Pa didn't catch that.  His hearing is getting bad.  (Probably a blessing!) 

Anyway, DD doesn't want to be part of our family.  She just wants to suck up whatever she can get until she can move on. 

her answer was that she'd never survive on her own.

Exactly!!  DD to a T.

So sad when I think of how much progress she had been making & how far she's regressed.  She's now lost all of the progress she made & then some.  She's worse than before.  So much brokenness.  But, because she can't trust, maybe she thinks that no one can?

Ramblings of a very, very tired RAD mom.