Reverse Trust Issues - Stress Related?

[anne]

  Ma,

I hear you.  I think we have the same daughter.  Can they be in the same place at the same time?  Twins perhaps?  Your Dd's arguments about having more privileges and freedoms is exactly what we're hearing.  I know that some of this is typical for their age, just that our darlins' have the needle stuck in the same groove (sorry, an old record reference). 

You're right.  It's that infantile part of their brain that both girls are using - if I can't see it/do it/feel it, then no one else can either.  I had a talk on the weekend about how babies learn with Dd13 (she's just finished studying the stages of development of human babies in school).  I told her that at first babies 'think' that we are attached to them, they are in control of us and are part of them, if we can't be seen, we've disappeared!  Dd13 was incredulous.  I said that it took time for them to learn that Mom/Dad wouldn't always do what they wanted and thus they were separate creatures, with ideas of their own.  Inherently they know parents mean survival, and they then learn that if we are separate, pleasing us feels good and displeasing us feels bad, etc. all the way to adulthood.  I asked her, where she saw herself in this progression of development.  She said, the newborn that thinks she can control her parents.      Either our Dd13 is one smart cookie or she knows how to manipulate us with the right answers...either way I was subtly impressed.  We talked further on that.  I've been using that analogy with her senseless arguments.  She 'gets it' but she doesn't want to and fights all the harder. sigh.  Don't even think she really gets what trust is, though she gets excited about ways to prove herself so we'll trust her, then won't do them.

Lots of work, lots of stress, lots of exhaustion.... lots of hugs to you and Pa.

anne

[Don M]

Ma Kettle said:
What if our kids think that we can't trust them, just like they can't trust anyone.  Like they have no control over it & there is nothing they can do to change it.

I like this as a very clean view, and would only qualify it as a part of the reason attachment is so difficult to develop if you missed the basics in infancy.

My kids will sometimes try to do what we have told them is expected and would lead toward our ability to trust them. 

Example: 
We ask them to tell us where they are and who they are with. 

They can do this honestly for a dozen times or even a hundred then that one time comes along when they go one place where we approve and immediately turn and head for the "party" at a friend's house (drugs, alcohol and other stuff).

So the result is:

• We feel betrayed because we were just starting to relax and believe they had figured it out.
• They feel Hay, I got it right 18 times!  Why can't you trust me?

If trust were book-making, my kids would be at 51% to 90%, and we'd bet with them every day.  That last 10% of consistency of doing what's expected and being aware of the value of trust just seems to be missing.

You can almost hear them flush away all that trust they were starting to earn, and then the "I don't care" after they get caught.  It's always our fault that we don't trust them.

[trying]

Sorry, things got busy and I haven't been on for a bit.  You asked if my ds15 can benefit from conversations like the one I described.  The answer is:  sometimes.  In the last week there have not been many moments when he could benefit, but on the day I described in my last post, he seemed to get it.

I've been thinking a lot about how to keep equilibrium lately.  (Is there any of us who hasn't?)  One thing that keeps coming to mind is how much we doubt ourselves---how much I doubt myself.  When my ds15 yells about not being trusted I have to go back and figure out whether I 'should' be trusting him, and whether I'm parenting him well.  Then I get defensive and feel I have to explain to him and get his approval for why I don't trust him, or don't let him get by with no chores, or don't....(fill in the blank)    I end up explaining and trying to convince him I'm right---and I end up doing it when he is already too emotional to listen well. 

What is up with that?

We make sense.  Somehow we need to be able to relax with that.  Our kids have reactive attachment disorder so they will often be so stressed out emotionally that they can't be rational.  When they start demanding trust from us, I want to get to the place where I can believe I'm still a good mom.  My ds is accusing me of being a bad mom because he is struggling---NOT because I AM a bad mom.  I want to be able to get to the place where I can have my first response be empathetic instead of defensive.  I have a ways to go with that.

But I believe that if I could trust myself more, I would find it easier to let the crazy accusations he makes be one of the sad things he does because he doesn't understand love and trust.  I think I'd be able to say to myself, he's having a hard time with it today, instead of thinking I have to prove that I'm right about this.

[justine]

Trying, all I can say is that i agree.   It really is a good goal...to be able to trust ourselves enough to not question ourselves everytime our rads go off on us.   Or even some of the time.  I do the same thing.   Dd18 feels loved or unloved, depending on things that go on in her head.   Her feelings dont always line up with reality.   I can be distant and busy and she feels fine or not.   I can be close and attentive and she feels fine or not....  But if she is dropping her p/a hints that she is "unloved", i start panicking or feeling guilty or resentful or....ACCCKKK! 

Part of the "explaining ourselves" is our desire to be a good mom in our RAD's eyes.   I know when my dd24 wrote an awful letter to me in Oct. (after a 6+ yr silence) I knew that most of what she said was her illness speaking.  I know that, but as i told some here....if the whole world agreed with me, i would still be sad that my dd thinks i am a bad mom who "hates her and wanted her life to be ruined".  (her words)   I dont know if that desire to have our mom-heart accepted by our kids goes away....maybe it grows quieter over time. 

I think i will always wish my children were well and felt loved.  How can we not wish for that?  But meanwhile we have to learn to accept what is....and hope.

[anne]

"Part of the "explaining ourselves" is our desire to be a good mom in our RAD's eyes."  Exactly.  Well said.

I think this is my biggest hurdle that I thought I'd overcome.  I guess it's a learning curve and regression under stress needs to be acknowledged, accepted, and taken into consideration so that I can deal with things better.  No child really thanks their parents and even begins to understand what  their parents have done for them until they are adults/parents themselves.  This is part of growing up for everyone.  At least parents with children who haven't had trauma get feedback in positive ways at times or can remember their darlins when they were infants.  They have positive times to draw back on knowing that, "this too shall pass".  RADdishes are different.  No one knows if it will pass, be toned down, fade, or just stay the same.  We have no feedback mechanism to say if we are doing this correctly or not.  No one knows how badly the trauma has impacted their brains nor how permanently they will be affected.  As Don said, it's that trusting and then they blow it and it's so hard to not go back to the idea that this really is an 'oops' or is it, as it is so often, the start of a very slippery slope.

We've had Easter.  We've had 4 glorious days together (Fri-Mon).  It all came undone yesterday with incomplete homework that Dd13 said was done when asked throughout the weekend.  We dealt with it - quietly.  This morning we found out about her destroying her brother's deodorant, twisting freezies and leaving them half open in the freezer, among other things.  She got rude and blew.  We got loud.  She pushes and pushes until there is an explosion.  If you don't explode the first time, she keeps going and making things worse until you do get upset. 

What have I learned?  The four days gave me time to become 'me' again.  They brought me back to the person I have been all along and keep loosing along the way due to stress.  I am 'shy' of people now.  I do see the manipulative people much faster now and don't put up with it.  That's okay.  I do trust those who are trustworthy - and that's what really counts!  When she backs down and is pleasant to be around or if we have a complete break from her, we can return to a more normal life.  My stress/trust issues are not as awful as I thought, but can get that way because of her tantrums.  They also taught me that I know our Dd13 pretty well.  I love the beautiful girl I got to go bridal shopping with on Monday (we're both in my sister's wedding party).  I love her sense of humour, her whit, her keen love for life, her energy and enthusiasm, her creativity, her very soul.  She is precious.   The stress and trauma of these constant tantrums are wearing us, the parents down.  But in spite of all of this, I knew that the goodweekend we had with her wouldn't last and that was okay.  We got through until Tues. evening before she melted - not too bad.  I don't feel badly about not being able to trust her in the area of her homework/responsibilities.  This is the way she is - at least for now.  I can't change her.  She has to want to change.  Somewhere along the way I stopped letting her go and started again to try to do it for her again - at least emotionally. 

So, for me...
1. Stress takes the "manageable" and can wear me down so that even little things seem monumental - I need to be aware of that and work to reduce stress where possible (breaks and nice things for me are a good start).  Trust issues like any other issues are made worse because of stress.
2. She'll change or not as she is capable and desires to.
3. I am responsible for keeping me going so that I can be the best Mom and Wife I can be.
4. Trust is an earned thing when all the unwanted behaviour has completely stopped.  That's okay.
5. I still love her and can see the good in her.

Perhaps #5 was the part that I was needing to see the most.  This past weekend was a blessing because it reminded me that when she does want to, she can open up and show the beautiful soul she has.  If I can keep this memory first in my mind even under stress, I can manage me and be there for her.  God, give us all the strength to do this.

anne

[Jeannie]

Anne, your post blesses me.  Really.  I'm writing with a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes -  you've articulated some things that I haven't had words for.

My DS8 a couple of weeks ago had a meltdown where he began hitting me.  (This has been a problem since he was a baby.  I know things have improved because he now pulls his punches and I'm not actually hurt.  But it's still horrible.)  I lost it, began to sob, and told him that "kids are supposed to love their parents.  Kids aren't supposed to hit their mothers.  I don't know how to help you learn this.  I've been trying for years and years..."  He began crying, too, and said, "But I do!" to counter what I said about kids loving their parents.

I think he does love me.  It's just all so mixed up and covered over..... and I get worn out trying to always dig for the "gold".  But I think it's there.  I hope it's there.  I pray it's there.

Thanks again, Anne.  (((((((((((Anne)))))))))

[trying]

Anne and Jeannie and Justine, you've each said such heartfelt and honest things.  It helps me feel inspired to keep 'trying' to hear from you.

[anne]

Weird, weird, and weirder...
The more days in a row I get with Dd13 and Ds11, the more I increase in trust as my stress goes down.  Hopefully now being more aware of this, I can level that out to insure it doesn't go along with my emotional state and merely with my knowledge of what my children are able to happen.
 
anne

[Don M]

Hi Anne;
   I see your point that when we are in the middle of crisis with crazy stuff all around us our ability to trust really is at an extreme low.  When the crisis is over and we begin to relax we find we are again seeing some ability to trust.  That has been repeated many times in my family, so I do understand.

   I will defend that low trust level by saying that at least for my kids, when they are escallated into high emotion fight/flight mode, they are capable of doing things that they would not under less extreme conditions.  They really cannot be trusted in that state to the same level that they can when calm and functioning with more of their upper brains.

   You are right to suggest that one of the elements of sanity in this area is to remember that our emotions do effect the way we think at a given moment of time.  Our kids show that directly by the abusive junk that comes out of their mouths when they are in this state, including direct accusation that we never wanted them, never loved them and would rather they just died so we could stop worrying.

   One of the best defenses that we've learned is to refuse to go beyond a specific level of discussion.  We get screaming stuff about you're going to send me away, you won't ever let me see my friend again, etc.  It is important not to say "You are right" at that moment because we are angry.  At least for dw and I it is unlikely we will do either of these things next day or the day after that when things have calmed down.

   When we can catch ourselves, we try for the Love & Logic disconnect --
This is not acceptable, there will be a consequence but I need time to think about it.  Why don't you think about it too and I'll ask you after everyone calms down.

   Then it is sometimes hard to not continue the "fight", and not respond to crazy junk being thrown at us.  By having said "I will get back to you on that" once, we can continue to say it until they run out of steam and usually fall asleep.  The huge emotional drains of these events can leave everyone exhausted.  Both the child and parent need time to calm, reconstruct a more stable mood, and think about next steps.

[anne]

Don,
You have described our home to a 't'!  It's the not being drawn into those fights that gets us.  Repeating for us only ends up in our darlins escalating their behaviour - which can go to the point of breaking things or them biting themselves, or being violent towards us.  So, we send them to their rooms - not a good moment for time in which comes later.  We have drawn a line for violence and slowly, very slowly, they are coming to terms with it.  Boundaries were non-existent when they came and are only faint after almost 8 years. 

Maybe it's being naive, yes even after all these years...I'm finding myself in clear moments - that don't last long - of being detached emotionally from the issues and telling myself, Yes, that's because they are acting in an unloving and untrustworthy way, right now.  Not sure if it's from exhaustion or what.  The fact that they are not trustworthy right now isn't as big an issue when I have these clear moments.  But, when it gets repeated day after day and the hysterics accompany it...  yup, we go then too.    We are trying so hard to stay at the station.  When both get going or trigger the other, it just seems to be one long miserable day after another.  Right now, I'm in that good zone.  Dd13 began again this morning making sure I'd have to correct her - not things I can let go, as I let go quite a few as well - so that she could play victim and begin her act again.  Ds11 then had an issue over his pills.  I handled it, pretty good, but needs improvement.  But, if it pops up again tonight, tomorrow morning/evening, etc.  I don't know how long I can do this.  Then the frustration becomes overwhelming, the exhaustion takes over, and I'm back to being hyper-vigelent (sp?) all over again.  I'm still jumping when Ds11 comes into a room to quietly.  I'm taking herbal nerve tonic daily.  I'm reading my Bible daily.  I'm praying by the minute.

So, I'll chalk this morning up to a pretty good one on my part and treasure it.  I just don't know how you and Wifey do it, Don.  You both are really incredible people and I thank God that you are so willing to share your heartache and your successes.  You are both amazing parents and those kiddos are really really blessed to have you - though they might never admit it. Your growth as parents helps us as well.  Thank you.
anne

[Jeannie]

Okay, I'm going to jump into this thread with a question.  Like Don and Anne described, my DS8 can move into "dysfunction" mode pretty quickly, and while there do some pretty nasty stuff: major verbal abuse, hitting, kicking, spitting, destroying things, etc.  It doesn't happen often, but it happens enough that I'm always "on edge" if he seems a little negative.  And that's most of the time.

Yesterday DS8 was upset about not being able to play with the neighbor kids (they weren't home) and came in and worked himself into a rage right away.  He was self-controlled enough this time not to do anything physical, but he wouldn't let up on me verbally and he absolutely refused to take his rage and his words into his room.

The choices I have seem limited:  1) get DH (if he's home) to intervene, and that's what I did yesterday
2) remove myself from the situation (done that before, but he follows me and begins kicking at the doors, screaming, etc.)
3)  physically move him to his room (he escalates and becomes violent with me)
4)  move to Antarctica

Do you have other real options that have worked for you in these situations?  At the moment I'm feeling like I have no control over my home - if DS rages, he takes over and there's no "safe place" for either of us.  It's a hard place to be.  Help!

[trying]

Jeannie,
I have no idea whether this will work but this is my suggestion.

Talk with him when he is calm about a strategy for when he is not calm.  Tell him that when he starts getting upset, the things he says and the way he says them gets too stressful for you and you have to find some other way of handling them.  Ask him for a trial time where when you feel too stressed, you will ask for a break.  You agree on the places your son can go for this break, but none of the options include staying with you or following you around.  Assure him that you can and will still talk through the issue later when you no longer feel stressed.  Maybe with this assurance he will be able to take the break.

If he can't, you are close to needing outside intervention.  Eight is pretty young, especially with our kids, for being able to control emotions so I have no idea whether he can do this.  The other thing I would do sometimes is call a friend.  If I was on the phone, the kids sometimes seemed to be able to refocus.

Ours were older when they got to the point of following us and becoming physical when we tried to remove ourselves from the conflict.  But that was pretty close to the times when they ended up in rtc.

[anne]

Jeannie,

Our AT had Ds11 find a safe spot in his room - beanbag chair - where he could practice being a turtle, pulling in his angry head, hands, feet, etc. and pulling it all inside his shell.  We taught him how to take deep breathes,usually when we held his hands and breathed with him.  Two years later he is finally starting to implement them on good days.  We also removed the dangerous things from his room e.g., bed frame (he broke it), curtains (broke the rod), desk (sits in hall and moved into room when he's calm), toys and books to playroom in basement except for stuffed toys, etc.  We created a safe room for him to go to.  We sit outside his room in the hall or go into our bedroom across the hall so we are nearby.  It works as long as you can train them to actually go to the room to calm down - we use 1 min. per year with a visual timer. 

No answers for being on the edge - I'm doing herbal nerve tonic, exercising, and praying, praying, praying.  Some days are better than others.  Lately I'm doing much better and not sure why which can be frustrating as I don't know how to repeat it/hold onto it. 

((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))
anne

[Don M]

... Yesterday DS8 was upset about not being able to play with the neighbor kids (they weren't home) and came in and worked himself into a rage right away.  He was self-controlled enough this time not to do anything physical, but he wouldn't let up on me verbally and he absolutely refused to take his rage and his words into his room.

Hi Jeannie;
   Your four choices are pretty much what's available, but there is one thing that is critical and I want to point it out carefully.  If he refuses to back off and take this to a safe place, this is beyond tolerable and you need a method of responding in addition to what you can use when he is at least a little cooperative.

   Please read and discuss the following with dh and your therapists and local police.

I would suggest (5) -- Take myself (and other kids) to my bedroom which has a hard lock and a phone.  Call either dh or the police to come immediately.

  The danger is real and you cannot continue much longer with that level of threat in your home.  Take all the opportunities you can to try putting in safe exits like Trying and Anne describe, but make a clear line about what is too dangerous to be allowed.

   Some parents can take active restraint training and manage more danger than others, but the bottom line is if you or other family members feel threatened then the home is no longer a safe place.  A safe home comes first, and has to take priority over any power struggles or tantrums that may occur within that safe place.

[anne]

Definately.