Vent

[Malina]

I don't know if this is in the right place at all, but it says Anxiety and Stress, and that is what I have, so I am going for it.  Y'all straighten me out if I am going about this incorrectly!

I want to tell you about tonight, but I don't want to have to relive it.  Just let me say it was awful.  And at the end of it, DD17 was at a military ball, looking beautiful and happy, and I was shaking like a leaf, feeling confused and set-up.  I don't even know how to explain what happened.

So many little things leading up to this, one thing after another for about 3 hours....well, all day really.  Well, really, anytime there is any interaction with her at all....at least it has been this way the past several weeks.  One thing after another...like psychological water torture.

Would it work to just assume anything she says to me is a lie.  So that maybe anything she asked me for I would give her something else and then say, "Well, I just figured you were lying when you said you wanted me to pick you up at 3, so I decided you probably really wanted me to pick you up at 5."  Or would that backfire?

I have to find someway to protect myself.  This is going to put me in an early grave.

Even DD11 said something tonight I never thought I would hear her say.  And I want you to know that I make it a point to remain very calm around DD11 and not let her know something is bothering me.  But she is observant and she said, "Things would be better without (DD17)."  I think she is starting to realize more, since she is becoming more mature, that DD17 only considers herself and does not take into consideration how her actions impact DD11.  I am pretty sure DD11 is not that aware of the pain DD17 is causing me (although possibly that is a factor), but she is noticing that her own inconvenience and discomfort are due to the behavior of DD17.

[Malina]

I admit, I am nuts and obnoxious enough to reply to my own posts.  I don't care anymore!  Bad night.  Bad night.

I am just sick of being lied to.

And I am worried about what DD17 is involved in.  And I realized tonight, it is worse than I ever imagined (some kid was ranting at me because she owed them money for a bet she did not pay up on....and I knew she gambled when she first came at age 7, but it never occurred to me she was still doing it, or that she could play a game with such high stakes...and lie about it to the people she was conning with real money in a major way).  And I also realize deep down in my bones that I am never going to know anymore than she wants me to know.

She is in charge of what I find out.  And she is letting me know that.  Not with the gambling, but with something else.  Throwing out red herrings in a very obvious manner.

It is almost incomprehensible to me that she is actually conscious of this, masterminding it, plotting it.  But, I think it is entirely possible.  She is working hard at not only keeping me in the dark about what she is doing, but also putting effort into confusing me on purpose.

She is a very, very sick girl!  And if you knew her background it would be entirely understandable.

No one sees it.  It is like a psychological thriller plot.  Diabolical.  How do I survive this?!

I am worrying about this gambling thing, because some of these people take revenge.  DD11 and I really may not be safe.  What can I do?

[Jeannie]

Ay yay yay.... you have me worried, 2hijas.  I'm racking my brain trying to think of who could be a help to you in something like this.

A lawyer?  The police?  Can you contact someone "in the know" regarding attachment disorders and get counsel from them?  I think that there are hot lines available.

Sounds pretty serious to me.  I hope someone on the board tonight will have some ideas for you.  In the meantime, know that I'm praying for you.

[Malina]

Thanks, Jeannie.  I have no idea who to call for help.  I used up all my savings paying for therapy a few years ago.  It did not work out.  I found a therapist who specialized in attachment disorder, and we went for about 6 or 8 months.  The therapist did all she could, but finally told me there was nothing she could do, because my daughter is "too well defended."  She would sit in the therapist's office and anything the therapist or I said to her she would just say something nonsensical or silly.  The last day she only repeated one phrase over and over again anytime someone said anything to her in the session.  This cost me thousands of dollars because my insurance would not pay for this therapist since she was outside their system.  I thought it was important enough that I needed to do it.  I should have just saved my money. 

[Jeannie]

Yeah, I know what you mean about putting the money into things that don't work.... but you have to try anyway.  Okay, so scratch counseling for DD17.  I guess I'm thinking that YOU need someone who can help you with a plan for surviving her antics.  The goal wouldn't be healing for DD, it would survival and health for you and DD11.

But who....  ??

I'm always amazed at the creative ideas I read on this board.  So many have walked this road ahead of us.  I hope a few will have concrete ideas for help for you.

Do you have documentation from the former therapist about DD's non-compliance?  Any documentation you can come up with might be helpful to make your position defensible.

[Malina]

No documentation.  Never thought about needing it.  I might be able to get something.  I am not sure.  The therapist adopted 2 older sibs internationally and then closed her practice.

I agree with you that I need some supportive counseling.  Finding a therapist who really gets it in this situation is going to be challenging.  Also, just meeting the copays right now (if I found someone in my network....how likely is that?) would be a challenge right now. 

DD17 just came through on her way to work.  I just answered her questions she asked and if she made a statement I said sweetly, "That's nice, dear."  She started some explanation about last night, which contradicted what I was told last night by her and 2 other people.  Who knows what is the lie and what is the truth.  I cannot concern myself about it anymore.  I just say, "That's nice, Dear!"

She didn't like it.  Got mad and left.

[Jeannie]

When I was looking for an AT in the new state we'd moved to, I started with Focus on the Family and their referrals for counselors who work with adoption issues.  It took some time, and we tried several counselors, but we actually had success through another avenue.  I found the recommended therapists lists on a couple of sites (this one has links, BTW) like RadZebra, and Families by Design, and saw only ONE in our state, and she was too far away to see very often.  I called her though, and she suggested someone closer to us.  I called, was heard and understood, and was connected with the therapist we now work with.  Just being heard and understood was huge.

Then we had to work out insurance stuff, and are in over our heads financially, but we're in a better place emotionally.

I tell you all this to let you know that it's like digging for gold, finding the right AT.  But there are folks out there who are trained, helpful, and available.  It's just tough to find them.

I like your "That's nice dear" responses to DD17.  Sounds like you're letting her ride the "raddercoaster" while you wait at the station.  Good Mom!!

[Malina]

Yes, I am not taking the bait.  Seeing this in a different way.  You all have already helped me a lot.

She tried again this morning.  Came out dressed for church and asking, "Is this okay?"  I didn't even look at it.  As it is, we had a change of plans this morning, so I didn't need to.

But, I have decided that I am just going to let her tell us who she is through her choice of wardrobe, and I am not going to get involved no matter how inappropriate it is. 

Unless it is something that directly affects me, why get into it with her?

[justine]

I so agree 2H....if our kids get to their late teens and they show know signs of wanting to change, let alone heal, it becomes a matter of survival.   I gave my dd the gift of tolerance, kindness and caring til the end.   But I spent less and less time interacting with her,as all she wanted me for was a "whooping post."    So i dropped all but the most essential rules and made sure i didnt ask her alot of questions.   My conversations would be similar to this...."oh hi honey!   I hope you had a good day....That color looks so nice on you by the way.   I left some casserole for you in the fridge but if you dont mind I'm going to go ahead and take a long shower cause I'm beat.  Looks like tomorrow is going to be nice and sunny.   Let me know if you need anything...."

As opposed to....." Oh hi honey.  Did you have a good day?   Did you get something to eat?  Cause i left you some food if you want.   How did....blank....go?"   etc.

In other words, I limited her opportunities to complain or put a bad spin on things.   If she wanted to complain she had to start THAT conversation herself.    I called it "drive by parenting"....sometimes i just walked by her and quickly touched her hair and said..."mmm, you smell so nice."   Or, "I wish I had your gorgeous hair".    Or, "you know, you look great in almost any color.  Not many people can pull that off...."

The flattery usually threw her off because she liked it.   Also, i spoke as i moved quickly on, to not give her a chance to change the subject.  The compliments helped ME in that i felt like a better mom , focusing on the yes, more superficial asopects of my dd...but it was better than the alternative....    You are on the right track, IMHO...

[Malina]

That is a good idea, Justine!  I am so glad you are here.  I feel like you really get this place I am in right now with my daughter.

I've done all the healing, attaching, correcting stuff for the past 9 years and it is obvious there is nothing more I can do in that regard.  Now it is a matter of crossing this bridge.

I like your suggestion of making positive statements when I see her instead of asking questions about her day.  Asking her a question is nothing more than an invitation for her to lie to me.  So, why go there?  By making a series of positive statements she cannot accuse me of ignoring her or giving her a cold shoulder.  But, I also lessen the possibility of being manipulated or jerked around in some way.

I'm sorry you had to go through anything like what our family life is like right now, but thank you for sharing your hard-earned wisdom with me!  I appreciate it!

[debra]

I absolutely agree with Justine.
The lies from my dd were literally killing my spirit.
I simply stopped asking any questions and it greatly reduced her opportunities to lie to me!

[Malina]

Perfect!  It feels great to have a new strategy.

And Debra, that is totally the way I feel....like the life is being wrung out of my spirit, one lie and manipulation at a time.

I am ready for a change!

[justine]

Debra and I have dds who are more like each other than anyone else and they have never met!   Same age too.   Because they were so passive/aggressive and similar, it was always a relief to hear how Debra came to many of the same strategies for "survival" that I did.   
It was important those long final months, to me/us, that I was as calm and kind as I could be.  Other than that, i removed myself emotionally as much as I could.  She didnt want my love, she wanted a punching bag.   Being her punching bag would harm me AND her.  Often that last year, I put into perspective "the real world" that dd would soon be entering.   And in the real world, people dont want to be around nasty people.   People dont "snuggle up" just to get bit.  I wasnt just a person out there, but her mom, so thus the commitment to kindness and calm, limited caring that went beyond what an outsider would do....but i kept it very limited.   And I wasnt out to change her anymore as you and debra have also mentioned.   The opportunity was there for her to change or not.

[Malina]

Well, it sounds like maybe my daughter makes 3.  Sigh.

Passive-aggressive is her middle name.  This is a kid who, if she doesn't like something you did, will go into the laundry during the night and punch little holes in your clothes.

She's so fun to live with!  Just the fact that I have kept her and not abandoned her like everyone else in her life, after all she has put me through, should be enough to let her know that I love her.  But, no.  I am mean, controlling and crazy, and she hates living her with me.  A fate worse than death!

Due to her in my life I have lost my marriage, numerous friends, 2 cats, my mother, a job, my reputation, my health, etc.  My DD11 has paid the price in her development, because I felt so guilty I wasn't giving enough to DD17.  It's not enough.  It's never enough.

I can't continue investing in her the way I have been, trying to prove anything to her or to help her grow and change in ways she is opposed to.  I have done all that I can.  Anything I would try to do now to shape and form her truly would be simply a matter of asserting control over her.  That's not who I am.  And it takes too much out of me!

[PaKettle]

2h

You and DD11 should go to a therapist.  Family counseling - address the anxiety and stress you both have.  You can bet DD11 has it too. 

You can't save a drowning person if they refuse to grab the life jacket, DD17 won't grab the life jacket, she wants you to jump in so she can stand on you to keep her head above water.  When you drown, she'll move to someone else.

When DD17 hits the magic 18th.  Move (boot) her out.  She wants to be an adult, she can't stand your rules or anything you've done for her.  Let her be the adult.  Let her be responsible for herself.  She will rant and rave to anyone who will listen about how you kicked her out.  So what?  She is probably telling everyone who will listen how horrible you are now too.  The only thing that changes is that you and DD11 get to build a life with out the stress caused by DD17.

Call it "Really tough love."  if it helps.  When someone asks you about DD18, just tell them "She wanted to live like an adult and is making all her own decisions now."

Pa.