Musings on why Negative Consequences do not work

[MissB]

Every morning before work, I feed the poultry and DD12 gathers eggs (this way I know the poultry get fed and the eggs gathered).  About a month ago, I looked up just in time to see one of the roosters jump on DD’s back and I yell “look out”.  When she stood up, he tried to hold on and ripped a hole in her t-shirt, she was not hurt bad, just a little scratched, but shook up. I held her while she cried and talked her through the situation explainig she wasn’t physically hurt, just her feelings were, and it was a scary situation.  After that, DD made sure that either DH or I was “watching her back” when she went into the poultry yard, at least I thought she was.

Last week, DD is sitting outside the poultry yard with her face right up to fence and with the rooster that attacked her on the other side.  He went into a fighting stance (neck feathers flare out) and started to lurch forward.  DH saw it and exclaimed to DD to move away;  he told her that she was challenging the rooster and should never be face to face, even with a fence between them. 

This morning, I look up and what do I see?  DD is filling the water barrels. I’m delighted that she took initiative and is filling them (only you guys on the forum know what kind of miracle this is). What I’m horrified about is that she has forgotten all about the rooster and the potential danger; it was obvious because she was off in a dream world, not watching the roosters around her (there are 5 total) and it took me yelling her name 3 times before I got her attention.

My analytical brain goes to work…..Most kids would have been “traumatized” by the experience of the rooster and it would have had a lasting impression.  I have a close family member who has never forgotten about being chased by a rooster when she was a young child and the memory has forever been burned into her brain so much that she HATES chickens.  Why wouldn’t the experience make a difference with DD?  Then I think about how Bruce Perry and Heather Forbes talk about the child’s regulatory system being “used” to being under stress and how it’s a natural state for these kids. 

Could it be that the abuse and trauma DD suffered through has changed the level of her ability to learn due to negative consequences, natural or otherwise, (consequences that would greatly impact another person who had not suffered through such horrific trauma)  and therefore it will not make a lasting impression on this child since she has suffered worse?   

[stevew328]

I can't speak from a scientific perspective, but from my experiences I would have to say Yes.  My DD15 seems to *never* learn from her negative experiences and I see her get right back into the same situation time after time.  Took me years to realize that negative consequences just don't work with her (but then, neither does positive reinforcement)...

[MaKettle]

What I'm starting to piece together with my DD16 is that even though she's hypervigilant she isn't processing very quickly and many experiences are quickly lost and so she doesn't put cause & effect together.  She makes the same choices/mistakes over & over & over &.........

If I wait until she's regulated to talk to her about it, she doesn't have a clue what I'm going on about.

[MissB]

Steve - with us, I've recently seen that Natural negative consequences only *sometimes* work when it is repeated over and over again - kind of like walking into a wall until you realize you have to use the doorway.

Ma - that's it! the piecing together is what I'm doing now.  I only realized a few months ago that DD12 did not have "cause and effect" thinking.  It hit me like a ton of bricks while talking to her one day, so I asked, "Don't you see if you do X, then you will get Y"?  She was honest and said "no".  So, no "if/then" thinking....

I guess I'm lucky that DD12 will see it later when I'm talking to her, but it doesn't matter because later the learning lesson doesn't usually stick.  She has to be "in the moment". What I mean by "in the moment is completely thinking about what she is doing, while she is doing it (i.e. I'm picking up my fork, I am putting the fork in my mouth, I am chewing) instead of just "doing without thinking" which I refer to as "autopiolot". She can do it, but it wears her out to concentrate 100% on everything she is doing.

[Kathleenb]

Negative consequences give a kid the opportunity to decide which s/he wants more, or wants to avoid more: the forbidden thing, or the punishment. If kiddo is rationally capable of making a decision... then it just depends.

Also, in many cases, they are just not thinking. No "think twice" cuz heck they can't THINK ONCE. They're frozen, or in fight/flight, because of some trigger we're not even aware of (and it may not show). They DO they don't think. They react.

Their brains are miswired. The autopilot (and/or F-F-F) kicks in before the logical brain has a chance to engage and evaluate. With normal circuitry, F-F-F engages faster than logic, inhibition, and the prefrontal cortex. Their circuitry may be further messed up, and it may be a long, tortuous, and time-consuming path for any sort of inhibition to occur (picture a pinball game, with the ball bouncing around crazily) - and by then the damage is done.

I think that's why some of the ADHD meds and beta blockers help - they tone down the F-F-F response enough for logic to catch up.

[MissB]

Kathleen, when DD is reguated and hyperaware of her activities she uses the new wiring.  When she is either unregulated or on autopiolot (not thinking of what she is doing), her system uses the old wiring. Besides the meds you listed, have you found anything else that works to help slow down the F-F-F?

Many times she aware of what the F-F-F does. For instance, she tries to talk to people, but her brain to mouth function isn't working. She says that all the words are bouncing around and she can't find which one to use (The pinball is a great visual) so she freezes up more.  So, it is becoming annoying and causing more stress.

Last night, when this happened in Therapy, she said she coped by putting her hair up and taking it down out of  pony and pig tails (rather than picking at or biting her nails - which is a BIG break through).  However, that was in a calm setting.  In a more chaotic setting, she would have bitten her nails without thinking or knowing she was stressed.  I guess I'm looking for the next step.

[Bizzziemom]

I was sitting here thinking about a worry stone for her.  You know the smooth rock to rub when you are stressed.

BUT....then I thought well she just might THROW that worry stone....

[Carlie1975]

I think you're onto something, MissB. 

I was chased by a large goose at a lake on a family vacation once.  Instead of helping, my mom laughed and pointed with my siblings while I ran screaming down the road.  I eventually climbed a tree to get away from it and then sat there for what seemed like hours until it went away.  To this day... those calm, peaceful little duck ponds that parks often have... trigger exactly the opposite feelings in me.   Even smaller ducks/geese trigger internal anxiety... and even though I'm an adult, and much larger, and realize it isn't going to hurt me - a large goose walking towards me terrifies me.   

I think traumatic experiences like that get wired into our brain to cause a certain reaction in order to avoid the danger in the future.  That is, we learn to avoid the situation.

Which is interesting because that's *why* our kids are the way they are - the excessive trauma and abuse "taught" them that they have to be hyper vigilant & in control of everything in order to be safe.  And yet... the dangers they are "stuck" reacting to are no longer real or present, but they seem incapable of encoding new dangers or threats and appropriate reactions.